For much of its history, the United States kept the rest of the world at arms length. What happened in the decades after the 1941 military strike on Pearl Harbor, and during several years after the 9/11 attacks, could be seen as an aberration.

The sudden, chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, the Taliban takeover, and resulting humanitarian disaster may lead to another American foreign policy shift, plus a far greater reluctance to deploy U.S. forces overseas. While isolationism is derided by policy experts and global elites, this movement has a surprisingly enduring legacy. We examine it here.

Charles Kupchan is a professor of international relations at Georgetown University and a Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. "Isolationism: A History of America’s Efforts to Shield Itself from the World" is his most recent book. We share extracts from an interview with Charles by Justin Kempf, host of the Democracy Group podcast, "Democracy Paradox".

"Beginning in the 1990s, and then really picking up after 9/11, the United States overreached ideologically by thinking it could turn Iraq and Afghanistan into Ohio, says Charles. "Suddenly, I think, Americans said to themselves and to their leaders, ‘Wait a minute. Too much world, not enough America.’"

Also in this episode: Jim and Richard share their views on the Afghan collapse, and offer several solutions for American foreign policy.

Recommendation: Jim is watching "Unforgotten", a widely-praised British crime drama television series, starring Nicola Walker and Sanjeev Baskkar.